What Do You Think?

[Allegracrown]

Part XII

date Jan 30, 2007



Dr. Zaheer and I had this discussion in private. He suggested putting a limit to the length of the responses. I said that even though space and time are important in a face to face debate, in a written debate we have the luxury to explain our views in detail and that the quality of our debate should not be compromised by the length of the responses. Sometimes one paragraph may contain several fallacies that each require several paragraphs to respond to. If the respondent is restricted to give all the evidence, it would appear that he has not enough evidence. This would give a false victory to the one who makes the false claims, not because of the strength of his argument but because of technicalities. I don't think we want to mislead our readers and win the argument through technicalities. We are discussing the truth or falsehood of Islam and not our abilities as debaters. Each side should have ample opportunity to explain his point of view exhaustively. Also, I suggested that Dr. Zaheer continue consulting Mr. Ghamidi. He is a scholar of world repute and his insight will help all of us understand Islam better. Dr. Ghamidi has earned his respect not just by me but by all of our readers and we all want to benefit from his erudition.
Furthermore, it seems to me that Dr. Zaheer is under the impression that by presenting the debate in a different format, the readers will come to a different conclusion. I sincerely doubt that but as I promised to him, I will publish his articles first in their entirety and then respond to them section by section, even if this means publishing them twice. I do this in all my debates and urge my opponents to do the same. I do not want to leave anything out. In this way, all the points raised are answered and nothing is left out. As the readers can see a lot of my questions have been left unanswered.
As for miracles, this is the claim made in the Qur'an and by Dr. Zaheer. I am asking him to show us that "brilliant" and "out of this world" evidence that he claims to have found is in the Qur'an. Mr. Ghamidi repeated several times that Muhammad made "itmam al Hujjat" I want that hujjat. You can't claim that the Qur'an is miraculous and out of this world and then when asked for evidence back off and say that there are no miracles and if you ask for miracles then you don't deserve to believe.
Is there any miracle in the Qur'an? If there is, please produce it. If there is none then stop making that claim. Saying you have to have pure heart to understand is not a good answer. Who are you to judge the purity of my heart? I do have a pure heart and I have demonstrated it. My heart aches when I see a woman stoned to death, a Jew is mistreated, innocent people are blown apart by Muslim suicide bombers, and women are subjugated and beaten. It was my purity of heart that made me see Islam is evil. But if by purity of heart you mean credulity and willingness to close my eyes to the evil and absurdity, then I think we have different understandings of this term.
Yes. I am repeating the demand of the disbelievers of the time of Muhammad. I never said I have found something new. These questions are old, as old as Islam. However they have never been answered. Those who asked these questions were silenced with brute force. Now is the time to answer them. Are you able to do that? We are listening. It is you who said the Qur'an is out of this world, miraculous and brilliant. Now show us what you claim. You say the journey of faith requires intellectual reasoning. Please share that reasoning with us. That is all we are asking. If you had said that your faith is blind, then we had nothing to disagree. However, when you say your faith is logical then you must be able to prove it. If Islam is the only true religion then it must have proof. Otherwise anyone can and in fact does make that claim.

That is what I did my respected friend and that is how I found the Qur'an is full of nonsense and I am sharing my findings with my readers. I showed you four of them so far and I can show hundreds. You on the other hand claim to have found something out of this world in this book. Please tell us about it. If what you found is objective, you can share it logically. If you can't., then it is not objective. You chose to believe in the same way people of all faiths and creeds choose to believe in their religions. You and I know that most of those beliefs are false. So tell us what sets Islam apart from the rest. I see Islam is as illogical as other faiths with the difference that Muslims are militant and want to impose their illogical faith on others with violence. I have no problem with illogical beliefs. But I have problem when people want to shove their illogical faiths on me.
In your last response you emphatically stated that Islam is not faith but fact. Here you are saying that the belief in God is "a hard-earned feeling." These are two contradictory statements. Facts have nothing to do with feelings. My feelings tell me that the Earth is stationary and the Sun is revolving around it. All my senses confirm this. But this is not the fact. My senses are deceiving me. It would be foolhardy to rely on my senses and my feelings to find the truth. Only logic is the measure of the truth. You say Islam is the only logical faith. Great! Please share that logic with us.

You are not answering the question. Are you insinuating that those who are not Muslims do not perform well in the moral domain or do not help people in need? During the earthquake in Pakistan and the Tsunami, it was the non-Muslim nations who helped most. The Muslim countries' help was shamefully dismal. Statistics show (and if you disagree, I can take the time to bring the evidence) that the non-Muslim countries are far more humanitarian that Muslim countries. When in Bam an earthquake killed over 50,000 inhabitants, Israel immediately offered to help and to rescue people trapped under the rubbles. The Mullahs turned that offer down and let people die an agonizing death. Have you apologized for what your country did to the Bangladeshis in 1971? Please do not lecture about "moral domain" to us. What moral domain Muslims have? None! Do Muslims help anyone who is not a Muslim? Muslims' charities are earmarked to promote Islam and not to improve the lives of people. There is always a string attached to every help Muslims give to others. If they help the poor it is to enlist their youth in Jihad.

My esteemed professor: I am not asking you for a magic wand. You said your belief is all logical. I said, fine, please tell us about it. What is it that Allah wants to test us for? Does he want us to be stupid? Does he reward stupidity and punishes intelligence? You said Islam is fact. I ask you to show us that fact. If you can't then at least please withdraw that claim and be honest about it.
I am not asking you for an extraordinary physical phenomenon. The Meccans asked this and Muhammad said categorically that he can't perform any miracles, even though he admitted that other prophets prior to him did perform such miracles. He claimed that his miracle is the Qur'an. I read that book and saw no miracle in it but absurdity and violence. You say you converted to Islam because you saw something out of this world in it. So obviously you saw the miracle. If what you found is logical and objective you should have no problem sharing it with us. Let us say I don't have pure heart, as you claim. Thousands of others are reading our debate and for sure many of them must have pure hearts. So tell it for them. If my heart is sealed, theirs is not. They will benefit from your insight and their faith will strengthen.

Is that logical? We can read about the claims of Galileo, Newton, Darwin, Einstein, etc and they make as much, or perhaps even more sense today than when they first postulated them. How is it that the truth of Islam fades with time? Isn't truth eternal? If Islam was eternal truth, it should make sense all the time to everyone. Only then God could punish those who disbelieve. Since according to your own confession the proof of Islam has evaporated with time, God has no moral ground to punish anyone for disbelieving in something that cannot be proven and sounds illogical. Just because a bunch of illiterate bandits in the 7th century Arabia found Islam true, is not good enough for us to accept it.
Conclusion: I asked you four questions. You responded to three of them and your responses were inadequate. You did not respond to the fourth question. Finally you said that since you have seen something out of this world in the Qur'an, you have accepted that book as the book of God and you have closed your eyes to all its errors and violence. That logic is beyond my comprehension but I agreed with it for the sake of argument. So we decided to change strategy. This time I asked you to show us that undeniable evidence you talk about. Now you don't seem to have any and say I do not deserve believing. Is this response logical or is it ad homiem? Assuming I am not worth believing, what about our readers? Don't you think among them there must be someone with pure heart who desperately needs some evidence to believer?
Where shall we go from here? You can't disprove my accusations that the Quran is full of errors and you can't give a single argument to support your claim that this book is out of this world. What shall we talk about now?
PS. I have exceeded the limit of 1000 words that you imposed on me. Do I lose now? Does this mean that Islam is true?

[Allegracrown]

Part XIII
The message of Dr. Zaheer was published in its entirety in the site. Here is that message and my response to it point by point.
February 6, 2007

Dear Dr. Zaheer. I don't think we both agreed on those new rules that you suggested. As far as I am concerned you can respond anytime you like and your response can be as long as you wish. We are discussing the truth or falsehood of Islam, a religion that is believed by over a billion people and is responsible for their miseries and the suffering of the rest of mankind. This belief is threatening the peace of the world and could cause a major holocaust in which millions, if not billions, could perish. Should we sacrifice the truth with deadlines and by not exposing the whole truth because of the restriction on the number of words we are allowed to use? Who will benefit from this? Let the truth be said, Dr. Zaheer. If that is what you and I care about, we must not restrict ourselves with these rules.


Dear Dr. Zaheer: Your views, just like your good self, are very worthy. However, you must realize that I have had thousands of exchanges with Muslims and believe me, there is nothing they say that is new to me. The reason I do not have to think about what Muslims write is because I have heard them thousands of times and I have answered them all already. They all use the same fallacies. These were the same mental blocks that I myself had. You do not say anything that I myself did not say during my days of faithfulness and oblivion. I already did my thinking over what you say a decade ago. Also I respond as I read. This saves me time.

Well, this time I published your entire message first and a day later I am responding to it piece by piece. Do you think in this way you have scored more points and people are going to think you are right? I doubt it. You can present the truth in any shape or form, it will shine always. Let me quote one friend's comment on what you wrote in the site, since I know you can't access the site.
"It is the practice in the academic world to dissect and put grouped sentences under microscope. This is to bring greater objectivity in the issues debated. I don't see how cutting into pieces changes the meaning, unless along the way Ali Sina deceitfully deleted some passages to his advantage. According to my knowledge after following the debate, Dr. Zaheer has not once complained about such an academic crime. That leads me to believe that Ali Sina has published everything in full. Besides, I don't see how Dr. Zaheer's response could mean differently if cut into pieces. I think Dr. Zaheer should at least give us an example to prove his point. He owes this to the readers. Or else, this is such a lame excuse."

I think you are misunderstanding what Jesus said. In Matthew 10:34 Jesus is not advocating violence and war. He is saying that because of their beliefs, the Christians will have their families rise against them and even slay them. In no place in the New Testament you find Jesus advocating violence and hate. Remember that he preached turn the other cheek, forgive the sins of others so thine own sins can be forgiven and let the one who has not committed sin throw the first stone. Advocating hate and violence is not consistent with the whole message of Jesus. On the other hand the Qur'an is full of violence. The message of Muhammad does not become a message of peace and love if he plagiarized a few good words to fool the foolhardy. You can quote any criminal saying wonderful words. This does not transform that criminal into a saint.


It seems to me that perhaps because of the length of my responses, you did not read what I wrote in response to this point. You accuse me of not mulling enough over your responses when I actually know the answer by heart because I heard these same fallacies a thousand times, and yet you do not even read what I write. Let me repeat what I said before.
We are not talking about the killing of murderers but about the killing of those who disagree with Islam. In no civilized society people are put to death for merely disagreeing with the government or with the constitution. People who disagree with the ruling party, form their own opposition parties and with immunity and under the protection of law try to topple the government through the legal means provided to them. Anyone can criticize the constitution and even advocate for changing it and or amending it. The objectors of conscience are not put to death. In Islam the apostates and those who criticize Islam are put death. By comparing apples to oranges you are engaging in a logical fallacy.
If I reduce the size of my responses, will you promise to read them from now on? What is the point of writing if you don't read what I write and repeat the same thing again?

Killing those who commit murder is another topic that does not concern our discussion. Here we are talking about the other two categories of people that according to Islam must be killed - those who cause "mischief" and those who are "unworthy of living in this world anymore after they had denied the clearly communicated and understood message of God."
I already explained that the world fitnah is translated as mischief, opposition and even persecution. What constitutes "mischief?" Anyone who opposes Islam or criticizes it is deemed to be causing mischief. The other category is people who decide to exercise their freedom of conscience and not believe in Islam.
This is evil. That is why we want to expose and eradicate this evil cult. Humanity has fought for its freedom of thought and we must not give in to a barbaric cult that wants to take our hard earned freedom from us.
However, the question that I kept asking and you failed to answer is where is that clear proof you are talking about? I asked you many time, to give me one logical proof that Islam is from God. You talked about everything under the sun but did not answer this question. In your last message all you have done is say how bad is my debating habits but avoided the question that I asked you.
Where is the proof that Islam is from God? This is a simple question. Why the answer to it is so hard? Isn't it because the more you think about it the more you realize that there is no evidence? Up until today, you had not paused to think about this. You are not alone. A billion Muslims, including yours truly had not thought about it. Now you can see for yourself that there is no proof. Muslims believe in Islam merely out of blind faith and because of conditioning. They are not allowed to question it. They simply are forced and brainwashed to believe it. Do you know that the people of North Korea worship Kim Jung Ill. Do you think that that monster is worthy of worship? This is called brainwashing. Stalin did the same. When you disallow any criticism and force your only version under the threat of death, you brainwash people. That is what Islam does. If Muslims were left to investigate the truth and compare, only the brain dead and the criminals would have been interested in Islam. In America it is mostly the jail inmates who find Islam attractive. There are also good people who are deceived. Most of them leave this cult when they learn the truth and then they join us and become staunch critics of Islam. I hope that now you can see that you have been brainwashed too. All along you believed that there is undeniable proof in Islam. You were so convinced that you accepted this challenge to debate with me and when failed to answer my questions about the evilness and absurdity of the Quran you said, all I have to do is see the evidence that you saw in the Quran and then I will forget about all the rest. So I asked you for that evidence and suddenly you can't find it. Shouldn't you leave Islam now? You and Mr. Ghamidi are good men. You don't belong to this evil cult. Islam is made by Satan to make people hate one another and kill each other. God would never order what Muhammad asked his foolhardy followers to do. He would never have allowed his messenger to behave so despicably the way Muhammad has behaved.

The questions that I asked were not naïve and your responses were not logical. They were based on faith. People with faith accept anything. The contradiction on intercession is obvious, just as the contradiction in the question number 4, about what happens after we die is obvious. Do we go strait to hell or heaven or we disappear into nothingness to rise on the Day of Judgment? Despite repeating this question several times, so far you have not even acknowledged it. Why? If you had a good response you would have answered it when asked the first time. That is why I prefer to respond to each argument that my opponent raises point by point. I wish you did the same. I am afraid; you did not make me understand. I doubt you yourself are satisfied with your answer. The errors in the Quran are obvious, except to the believer. Then again, the believers are blind. How can they see those errors?

You did not read my previous responses. I don't think I have to repeat. I made my point very clear.

Muslims are performing poorly is an understatement. They are acting barbarously. They are acting like savages and yes Islam has everything to do with it. You yourself say that those who do not believe in Islam after being given the clear proof should be put to death. Apart from the fact that despite my repeated requests you have not yet shown us the proof, you know that you can't because there isn't any, how can any civilized person say those who do not accept my version of the truth should be put to death? You are not born evil and are not a bad person naturally but what you have embraced and now defend is evil. Is it civility to kill someone just because he does not find any truth in the unproven and unsubstantiated faith that you have espoused? Isn't this the reason Muslims are constantly in war with each other, blaming one another as heretics?
You blame other Muslims. Forget about them. What about yourself? What is the difference between you and Osama Bin Laden? Please explain this to me because I see none. Both of you want to kill those who disagree with Islam, both of you want to spill the blood of those who decide to use their brains and leave Islam. And you criticize and look down at other Muslims? You are mistaken my respected friend, you became evil the moment you embraced Islam.
The tragedy is that you don't know even what is evil anymore. Killing people for what they say or believe is evil. We are not talking about killing the murderers. I did not shed a tear when Saddam was hanged. But how can we call ourselves civilized and endorse or promote a doctrine that teaches killing those who do not agree with it.
If this is the standard then I have more rights to kill the Muslims. You have failed to give a single proof about the clarity of Islam, when I have given hundreds of undisputed proofs that Islam is false. The very fact that I allow all Muslims to publish their rants in our site and never censor them, even when they insult me, is proof that I am not afraid of what they say. On the other hand you banned faithfreedom.org in Pakistan. If what you say is true, then why not let everyone see this truth? Why don't you publish our debate in your site so everyone can see how you established the superiority of Islam? We both know that you know that Islam is defeated.
Everyone thinks he has the truth. This is the fact of life. If we thought our beliefs are false would we hold unto them? Does this mean everyone should start killing those who disagree with his version of the truth? What insanity is this?
Muslims are performing poor? Are you okay yourself? Should everyone become intolerant like you and then the world will become a paradise?
You did not read my long response or you would not say these things. These are embarrassing statements. They are bellow great scholars such as you two. And you say Islam has nothing to do with the dismal and barbaric way that Muslims think and behave?
Dear Mr. Ghamidi and Dr. Zaheer. Islam is evil. Anyone who embraces this cult becomes evil. I only know few good humans who called themselves Muslims. One such person was my grandmother. But the fact is that that blessed soul had no idea how evil is Islam. She died blissfully and in ignorance. Had she known what I know, she would not have remained in this cult one single day. Good people cannot tolerate evil. As we Persians say, the proof of a perfume is in its fragrance. I like that better than its English version that says the proof of the pudding is in eating it. You advocate killing people for not agreeing with your faith and you call yourself good? Evil is he who evil does. Let me give you the news. As long as you believe in an evil man and promote his evil cause, you can't be good. As long as you think people should be put to death for what they believe, you are not good. God does not need murderers and assassins. You are not doing God's work. You have become agents of Satan doing his work. As long as you remain Muslims, your thoughts are satanic, your deeds are satanic and you do evil because you have embraced an evil cause. Is this really what you want to do?
It's time to wake up my respected friends. It is time that you come to your senses and realize that this road that you have taken will take you to hell, both in this world and in the next. People are waking up everywhere. Good people are leaving Islam and are joining the human race. We are one people, one family called mankind. It is not befitting for us to divide ourselves between "us" and "them" for a stupid ideology that cannot be proven and then start killing one another. What tragedy is greater than this? What insanity is bigger than this? How much stupidity is enough? How much?
First you said that there are no errors in the Qur'an. I showed you four out of hundreds and you failed to disprove anyone of them and in fact neglected the forth altogether. Then you deny the obvious and call that "naive". Then you said that since you have seen something out of this world in the Qur'an you are willing to close your eyes to all its errors and evilness, which you yourself said you had seen, and accept that book as a divine revelation. So I asked you to tell us about that thing you saw that impressed you to this degree that you are willing to forego your humanity and shed the blood of innocent people. In these last two responses you talked about everything but what you were supposed to talk about. Dr. Ghamidi repeated several times that Muhammad gave undeniable evidence "itmam al hujjat." I asked you to show us that hujjat. Will you now talk about that? Are you really able to show us that "out of this world" thing that you say you saw in the Qur'an?

[Allegracrown]

Part XIV
February 19, 2007

Dear scholar friends Mr. Ghamidi and Dr. Zaheer.
This time I delayed my response because you had complained that I respond too quickly and the readers cannot absorb what you said properly. I am sure this time they have absorbed everything you said fully since your response has been published nearly a week ago.
I must admit that you have a very unorthodox way of defining tolerance. Muhammad could not tolerate anyone criticizing him and ordered the execution of those who, many years earlier, had ridiculed him. He even had zero tolerance for those who wanted to believe in their own faiths and did not want to submit to his unsubstantiated claims. I am at lost trying to understand your definition of tolerance. This story you are telling us is not the sign of Muhammad's tolerance but an indication of his paranoia and intolerance. Muhammad was a narcissist and as such he was insecure of himself and suspicious of everyone. So he prohibited people saying an Arabic word because he suspected, they were saying something different to mock him, and you think just because he did not "took to task immediately" i.e. did not order their execution, he was a tolerant man? Is this your definition of tolerance? No wonder you call yourself tolerant and moderate when you repeatedly have stated that anyone who does not believe in Islam or anyone who leaves it does not deserver to live in this world. The irony is that Muslims are the most intolerant people on the face of the planet and despite that they think to be tolerant.
My erudite friends, allow me to explain the concept of tolerance as I, and the rest of non-Muslim portion of humanity understand it. Tolerance means you are fair, objective, and permissive toward those whose opinions and religions differ from yours. It means that you treat others with the same respect and consideration that you would like to be treated. How can you be tolerant when you say those who reject Islam do not deserve to live in this world? How would you like to be put to death because of your faith? What would you say to a person who believes you don't deserve living in this world because your religion is different from his? Would you call such a person tolerant? If not, then you are not tolerant and neither was your prophet.

The Sura 6 is a Meccan Sura. When Muhammad said these things, he was weak and when one is weak one can't be intolerant. You can be intolerant only when you are strong. When Muhammad went to Medina and became strong he became very intolerant. Sura Maida is Medinan and there is nothing tolerant in the verses 5.57-58 that you quoted. Here Muhammad is saying "take not for friends and protectors those who take your religion for a mockery or sport,-whether among those who received the Scripture before you, or among those who reject Faith". How do you interpret this as a tolerant teaching? If you find someone urging others NOT to take Muslims as friends and allies because they ridicule trinity, would you say that this person is a tolerant person?
Muhammad was not tolerant. He remembered those who ridiculed him and years later, when he came back to Mecca he sought them and took his revenge despite having promised that if the Meccans surrender with no fight he would spare their lives.
The Qur'an should be read in its context. The so-called tolerant verses of the Qur'an are all Meccan verses while the Medinan verses are violent and intolerant. The following are examples of the kind of verses that Muhammad wrote in Mecca.
1. Be patient with what they say, and part from them courteously.
(Q.73:10)
2. 2. To you be your religion, and to me my religion. (Q. 109:6)
3. 3. Therefore be patient with what they say, and celebrate (constantly) the praises of your Lord. (Q.20:103)
4. 4. Speak good to men. (Q.2:83)
5. 5. We well know what the infidels say: but you are not to compel them. (Q.50:45)
6. 6. Hold to forgiveness; command what is right; But turn away from the ignorant. (Q.7:119)
7. 7. Pardon thou, with a gracious pardoning. (Q.15:85)
8. 8. Tell those who believe, to forgive those who do not look forward to the Days of Allâh. (Q.45:14)
9. 9. Those who follow the Jewish (scriptures), and the Christians - any who believe in Allâh and the Last Day, and work righteousness, shall have their reward with their Lord; on them shall be no fear, nor shall they grieve. (Q.2:62)
10. 10. And do not dispute with the followers of the Book except by what is best. (Q.29:46)

Now let us compare them to those written later in Medina when Muhammad became powerful.
1. 1. Oh you who believe! Murder those of the disbelievers and let them find harshness in you. (Q.9:123)
2. 2. I will instill terror into the hearts of the unbelievers: smite above their necks and smite all their finger-tips off. (Q.8:12)
3. 3. Whoso desires another religion than Islam, it shall not be accepted of him. (Q.3:85)
4. 4. Slay the idolaters wherever you find them. (Q.9:5)
5. 5. Kill them wherever you find them, and drive them out from wherever they drove you out. (Q.2:191)
6. 6. Fight them on until there is no more dissention and religion becomes that of Allâh. (Q.9:193)
7. 7. Fight them, and Allâh will punish them by your hands, cover them with shame. (Q.9:14)
8. 8. Make no excuses: you have rejected Faith after you had accepted it. If We pardon some of you, We will punish others amongst you, for that they are in sin. (Q.9:66)
9. 9. You who believe! Verily, the Mushrikûn (unbelievers) are Najasun (impure). So let them not come near Al-Masjid-al-Harâm (the grand mosque at Mecca ) after this year. (Q.9:28)
10. 10. Fight those who do not believe in Allâh and the last day... and fight People of the Book, who do not accept the religion of truth (Islam) until they pay tribute by hand, being inferior. (Q.9:29)

There is a big difference between the Meccan and the Medinan verses. We see that Muhammad is transformed from a preacher to a despot and when he had the power, he did not have to play the "nice guy" and started showing his real face unmasked. And it was ugly, very ugly.

As for your first alibi, at no time the non-Muslims had imposed any war or Muslims. All the wars and hostilities were initiated by Muhammad and his followers just as the Muslims today are the initiators of virtually all hostilities with others.
As for your second alibi, the fables of the Bible are just that - fables. You yourself do not believe in the Bible and at anytime it contradicts your faith you disregard that book, except when you want to justify the evil deeds of your prophet. Furthermore the so-called punishments of God are acts of nature. The biblical prophets had nothing to do with hurricanes, floods, earthquake, etc. Whether these phenomena are ordered by God intentionally to kill people indiscriminately or not is another story. I already talked about that in my previous responses. Let us assume these natural calamities are sent to men deliberately by a malicious and vengeful god. Okay, we have no control over what this god does. All we can do is get away from the danger and abort his malicious attacks on us. Thanks to the science it is now easier to predict when these calamities are going to hit and seek safety. So as you see, we humans are gradually making this old guy helpless and toothless. Anyway, my problem is when a human assumes the role of God and starts massacring innocent people. This is something we must not tolerate. What right did Muhammad have to do that? Your justification of Muhammad's killings is no different from that of Hitler who wrote:
Hence today I believe that I am acting in accordance with the will of the Almighty Creator: by defending myself against the Jew, I am fighting for the work of the Lord.
Anyone can claim to be sent by God doing the Lord's work to justify his crimes with divine authority. Playing God is the wet dream of the narcissist. In Uganda, a mad man, Joseph Kony calls himself messenger of God. He is the founder of Lord's Resistance Army (LRA). He kidnaps children and transforms them into killing machines, much like what Muhammad did. He takes them back to their villages and orders them to kill their parents with machete, to prove their faith. If they refuse he massacres the entire family. Just like your psychopath prophet this mad man also has divine justification for his crimes. Muhammad, like Knoy and Hitler was sick in the head.
What about you Dr. Zaheer and Mr. Ghamidi? How can you, who are sane and intelligent people, believe in a monster like Muhammad and justify his crimes? If you believe in God aren't you afraid to stand if front of him one day and respond for your belief in an evil man like Muhammad? How can you cover your shame when your maker asks you, did you think I am so stupid to send a criminal as a prophet? Didn't you think that by taking a pervert sadist like Muhammad as my messenger you were committing blasphemy? The followers of Kony are children. They are brought up by this monster and murder is the only life they know. They can't be blamed. What are your excuses? Even though you, like all other Muslims, have been brainwashed since childhood, you are now adults and quite intelligent. You have no excuses for following a psychopath mass murderer.

I already answered this. You don't seem to read what I write or pay much attention and yet you accuse me of not pondering upon what you say and
respond quickly, despite the fact that I respond to every paragraph you write. What you say is not news to me. These were the same fallacies I used to believe for years. I thought a lot about them 13 years ago and now I have the answer. I do not have to solve a problem that is already solved. However, you have no clue about my side of the story and why I say Muhammad was an imposter and instead of reading my arguments and try to refute them, you simply avoid reading them. As the result you keep repeating the same things in each message.
Even if the prophethood of Muhammad was obvious to those around him, as you say, it is not obvious to us. The truth of his claim is not clear to me and despite asking you several times to give us the evidence that he was a prophet of God, you have not done it yet. You have not done it because you can't. All you can say is that those who saw him were convinced. How do you know that? Maybe many of them were not convinced but afraid to speak out or leave him. This kind of response does not satisfy me. I dismiss it as fallacy. This fallacy that is so close to Muslims' hearts and they use it often is called argumentum ad veracundiam. Those who followed Jim Jones also saw the evidence that he was a great Messiah. They were so convinced that when Jones told them to drink poison and die, they did it happily. Also those who believed in David Koresh, Charles Manson or Shoko Asahara were convinced. Like Muslims they went around killing innocent people. Is the strength of faith enough proof of the veracity of their claim? Each person has to see the proof for himself. You claimed that you have such proof and that your reversion to Islam was logical and not emotional. So where is that proof? Now that I am asking you to show that proof, you renege and talk about everything else but the proofs. You trust the intelligence of some Arabs who lived 1400 years ago and think if Islam was good for them; it is good for you too. What about others who did not see such evidence in Muhammad and did not believe in him despite the fact that they knew him since childhood? Why should I believe that Abul Hakam, Abu Lahab, Abu Sufyan and Nadr ibn Harith were less intelligent than the slaves Aba Dar, Bilal, the violent and bigoted Omar and the butcher Ali?
You are engaging in fallacy after fallacy. It is not logical to put your faith on the understanding of a bunch of Arabs of the 7th century who engaged in highway robbery and rape. You must see the proof for yourself. You claimed to have seen it but now you are saying something else and are shying away from giving that proof. If you saw the proof, show it to us.
When Galileo claimed that the Earth is rotating around the Sun, when Darwin presented his theory of evolution, or when Einstein stipulated that 90% of the mass of the universe is made of dark matter, these were theories. But because they were true, the passage of time revealed their truth. This is the characteristic of truth. Truth has a tendency to self-manifest. And you are telling us that the truth of Islam has faded in time? If Islam is true how can such a thing happen?
This is not logical. If the perceived evidence of the truth of Islam has disappeared, it is because it was never there. If we adhere to the law of logics, we should only conclude that because truth is emerging, falsehood is vanishing. That is why what the ignorant people of the 7th century Arabia thought to be true, does not appear to us as true. We are more intelligent than those barbarians. Those ignorant people had no problem accepting a God that orders robbery, assassination and rape. Now we know that no real God would send a fiend like Muhammad to guide mankind. That is against intelligence and commonsense. The messenger of God must be flawless. Muhammad was evil in the true sense of the word. I do not believe in Jesus as a divine personage but I can't denounce him as evil because he was not. That is why Islam seems false to us and it didn't to those savages. They were barbarians and ignorant and we are intelligent and civilized. Anyway, if the evidence of the truth of Islam has evaporated, as you claim, we can't be held responsible for rejecting it. God gave us intelligence to use it. Once we use our intelligence we see that Islam is nothing but a satanic cult. A just God would not punish us for rejecting something that is illogical and seems to be evil.
Now, let us be honest Mr. Ghamidi and Dr. Zaheer. Do you have any proof that Muhammad was a prophet of God or the proof is lost? It's either one or the other. You made both these contradictory claims, as if you want to have your cake and eat it too. If you have the proof, show it to us without further ado and if the proof is lost then admit that there is no proof and do not make such claims and please admit that your faith is subjective.

Which God are you talking about? That is not the God that Jesus or Zoroaster talked about. In fact Allah is completely inconsistent with the God of Christianity. Jesus said turn the other cheek and Allah says "retaliation is prescribed for you in the matter of the slain, the free for the free, and the slave for the slave, and the female for the female." (Q.2:178) In other words, if someone kills your slave, you are allowed to kill his slave and if someone kills your son or daughter, you can kill his son or daughter. What can be more stupid than this? Even Muslims who blindly follow everything Muhammad said do not practice this insane injunction. When a prostitute was brought to Jesus, he said let the one who has not committed sin throw the first stone while in a similar incident Muhammad urged the Jews who had abandoned the barbaric practice of stoning to stone a woman accused of adultery. Jesus sat with sinners, ate with them and befriended them; Muhammad said the unbelievers are filthy (najes) do not associate with them. Jesus said forgive the sins of others so yours can be forgiven in heaven; Muhammad was utterly incapable of forgiving people who had done nothing but mock him. Because Allah is incompatible with the God of Jesus we must not accept him.
Either Muhammad was lying or Jesus was a liar. Their messages are incompatible and their gods are different. You don't have to be a rocket scientist to know which one of the two was lying. Muhammad said that Jesus was a messenger of God. If he was not, then Muhammad has said a lie and therefore he can't be a messenger of God. If Jesus was a messenger of God, Muhammad can't be because these two men stand on opposite poles. One is the personification of everything that is divine and the other is the representation of everything that is demonic and evil. Furthermore Jesus warned people of false prophets and he even gave a clue to detect them. He said you would recognize them by their fruits. Look at the fruits of Islam. I think it is enough evidence to conclude that Muhammad was a false prophet. The fruits of Islam are ignorance, bigotry, fanaticism, intolerance, violence, misogyny, discrimination, terrorism, dictatorship, wars, poverty and misery.

The terrorists think they have direct sanction to do what they do and they are right. In no place in the Qur'an it says Jihad must stop after the death of Muhammad or at any other time. In fact in his death bed Muhammad urged his followers to go to war in Tabuk. Jihad must continue until the entire world becomes Dar al Salam. However, since Muslims are divided and each group denounces others and calls them heretics, if they conquer the world they will start killing one another on a massive scale. Islam is a cult of terror and murder. Mr. Ghamidi himself has been the target of Islamic assassination and at the same time he prescribes death for unbelievers and apostates. As long as you are a Muslim, and follow a terrorist mad man you do what he did and you can't be called tolerant. It makes no difference which school of thought or sect one belongs to or how one interprets the Qur'an. All the Muslims believe in the same book of terror and follow the examples set by the same chief terrorist. The difference between the Muslims is in their flavor. In essence they are all made of the same substance and have the same characteristics. You have been honest enough to show us what a moderate Muslim means. If you are the example of a moderate Muslim Islam is dangerous and it must be eradicated.
Killing people for what they believe or don't believe is not something the civilized world can tolerate. You think your understanding of the truth is perfect and so dose everyone else. If we each start killing each other because our truths are different what will become of this world? How can a real God say such a stupid thing? Humans are fallible. People genuinely and with all good intentions make mistake and interpret things, including books claimed to be words of God, in different ways. If each one of us thinks that he has divine sanction to kill those who disagree with what we think is truth then everyone should start killing everyone else.
Assuming Satan wanted to destroy mankind. What better way could he devise than sending someone as the messenger of God who would tell people to kill those who do not believe?

After realizing that I am not going to give up, you finally came up with this answer. Is this response supported by any other verse in the Qur'an or any hadith? This is not a minor statement but a major difference between those who lived at the time of Muhammad and the rest of mankind. It basically shows that God has a two tier system, of which we were not aware yet. If this answer is true and as you say, the companions of Muhammad, who had received his direct message, had the added advantage of surviving in the form of spirit while the rest of mankind would disappear to only rise at the Last Day, this would have been trumpeted in various verses and huge discussions would have been dedicated to it. Nothing of that exists in the entire Islamic literature and the Ulama who have even discussed in detail with which foot one has to enter the toilet, on which side of the body one has to place most of his weight during defecation and how many rocks one has to use for cleaning purposes after responding to the call of the nature, have been uncharacteristically silent on this very important subject. Can you tell us why? I will tell you why. It's because such a thing does not exist in Islam. You just made it up. What else could you say in the face of this obvious discrepancy within the Qur'an?
Every Muslim believes that the souls survive the death and are alive. At the same time they also believe that the death will rise at the Day of Judgment. These are contradictory beliefs. Yet Muslims do not seem to have any difficulty believing in both these mutually exclusive beliefs.
According to Islam the archangel Israfil will sound a horn sending out a "blast of truth". Muslim apologist, John Esposito, in The Oxford Dictionary of Islam says that according to traditions, Muhammad will be the first to be brought back to life.26
Will you please explain how can the companions of Muhammad enter in a spiritual state of existence until the Last Day when he himself doesn't? And if Esposito is wrong, can you show us a few hadith or Quranic verses to corroborate your claim?
What about the punishment of the grave? How do you explain this?
Ibn Abbas narrated: The Prophet once passed by two graves and said, "These two persons are being tortured not for a major sin (to avoid). One of them never saved himself from being soiled with his urine, while the other used to go about with calumnies(to make enmity between friends)." The Prophet then took a green leaf of a date-palm tree, split it into (pieces) and fixed one on each grave. They said, "O Allah's Apostle! Why have you done so?" He replied, "I hope that their punishment might be lessened till these (the pieces of the leaf) become dry." (See the foot-note of Hadith 215) 27
26 Oxford University Press. ISBN 0-19-512558-4, p.264 2003 27 Bukhari Volume 1, Book 4, Number 217
If there is no consciousness after death until the Last Day, how can corpses in the grave be punished? This hadith is reported in several places. Another version of it says that Muhammad actually heard the voices of two humans who were being tortured in their graves.28 Shall we believe in the hallucinations of this mad man?

The only difference is the way you interpret the Qur'an. Can you convince bin Laden or any Muslim that your interpretation is the right one and theirs is not? I think bin Laden's interpretation is the correct one. Furthermore, both of you believe that unbelievers do not deserve to live in this world and that along with the apostates, they should be killed. I honestly do not see much difference between your position and his. All Muslims, irrespective of how they interpret the Qur'an, are victims of a lie. The Qur'an is a very confused book, but not when it comes to killing. The message of hate and violence in the Qur'an is loud and clear.

What about you? Are you capable of changing your mind? I believe you are. But you are not showing it in public. Of course you can't do that and I am not going to press you to do it. I leave that to you and your conscience. Faith blinds, I hope this is not true in your case.
One friend wrote and said he had communicated with you and you were confident that you are winning this debate. In that case may I ask to please publish it in your site so everyone in Pakistan can see how you came out victorious? If you don't I am afraid that this friend will start thinking that you were bluffing and that you have serious doubts about your self declared victory.
28 Bukhari Volume 8, Book 73, Number 81

Haven't you made your mind already? Isn't this what all believers do? I have made my mind because I have not seen the evidence of the truth of Islam. On the contrary, I have plenty of evidence against it. However, should you give any evidence in support of Islam; I will acknowledge it and agree with you. Will you please give us a proof to back your claim that Islam is true? Until then you can't pass judgments saying I am not listening or it makes no difference whether you give the proof or not. First you have to present your proof and if I can't refute it and still deny it, then you can pass those judgments.

No, Dear Dr. Zaheer! The Qur'an does not mention anything that is in the Bible more clearly. It simply alludes to those stories casually as if realizing that its audience is already familiar with them and therefore there is no need to explain them in detail. If one has not studied the Bible and has never heard of Job, Noah, Abraham or Moses, one cannot understand the Quran. However, sometimes there are discrepancies between the stories of the Bible and the allusions made to them in the Qur'an. This is due to the fact that Muhammad was an illiterate man with little knowledge of the Scriptures. He relied on hearsay to rehash those stories. For example, he thought that Mary the mother of Jesus is part of trinity. At no time this has been the case. By witnessing the reverence that the Christians had for Mary, he came to this erroneous conclusion. In another place he confuses Mary the Mother of Jesus (Maryam in Arabic) with Miriam the sister of Moses and Aaron (also Maryam in Arabic). When those who knew the Bible caught his errors he lost his temper and became angry, lashing out at them he said the Bible is mistaken. This is consistent with his narcissistic personality disorder and megalomania. His gigantic ego would not allow him to admit that he had been wrong and instead of apologizing he pulled out his sock puppet Allah out of his sleeve to support him.
Tabari says, a group of Jews asked Muhammad about the creation. He told them
"God created the Earth on Sunday and on Monday. Then he created the mountains on Tuesday. On Wednesday he created the cities, the vegetation, the rivers, and every development and ruin. [This is word-by-word translation. God created the cities and even the ruins before he created Adam] On Thursday he created the skies and the angels, which lasted to three hours before the end of Friday. Then during the first hour of the remainder of Friday he created ajals, the times of the deaths [I assume it means he established the time of the death of humans]. In the next hour he created the diseases [Yep that is exactly what it says. He created the diseases even before he created Adam] and in the third hour he created Adam. The Jews said; if you had said that God rested on Saturday we knew you were telling the truth. The Messenger of Allah became angry and Allah revealed the verse (46.33): "Have they not considered that Allah, Who created the heavens and the earth and was not tired by their creation?"29
The fact that the fable of creation mentioned in the Bible and the Qur'an is an absurdity and any sane person reading this fable can see it is unscientific is another subject. The point that I want to make is that Muhammad often made errors when plagiarizing from the Bible. He was not a scholar but a very ignorant man, and he got angry if someone pointed his mistakes out.

29 Tabari Vol I Page 30 Persian translation
Thank you for your explanation. I could not agree more. That is exactly what I thought when I read the above story of Muhammad reported by Tabari. Do you still want to follow an indecent and impolite man?

[Allegracrown]

Part XV



2007/02/27
Dear Dr. Zaheer:
There is a difference between warning people of divine chastisement and raiding them, killing them, looting their belongings and enslaving their wives and children and raping them. All monotheistic religions engage in the same scare mongering that if you don't believe in God, He will be offended and will punish you. This threat is harmless, unless you choose to believe in it. If you decide not to believe, it can't hurt you. What the Jehovah Witnesses think will happen to you and me after we die, does not affect us. We will not go to hell because they think we will. However, it would be a different story if they decided to raid our homes, slit our throats and enslave our wives and children or bomb us. Then their belief is no longer funny. We must take serious action and stop them.
If I threaten to kill you and then do good on my threat, am I a prophet? According to your reasoning, I must be. What other proof you need to believe in me? My prophecy came true with precision.
It is mind-boggling that intelligent people should engage in such logical fallacies. What is so miraculous about issuing a threat and then carrying it out? If the victims of Muhammad had perished by natural calamities, without his intervention, after he had forewarned them, then you had a point. That never happened even though at times Muhammad spent thirty consecutive days cursing his enemies. Where is the miracle in threatening people and then cowardly raiding them with no warning and butchering them when they are unprepared and unarmed?
You say that all one has to do to see the miracles in the Qur'an, is read it. I did that and what I found was violence, absurdity and hate. You don't deny that but you say that there are also miracles in that book and so we must not dismiss the book just because it is a violent book. You think that violence is from God. This is absurd reasoning but where is the miracle? Please show them to us. Some speculate that Nostradamus had prophetic visions. Admittedly there are many passages in the book of Nostradamus that can be seen as prophetic. Those who make such claim can back up their claim with concrete evidence. They quote hundreds of his quartets that seem to have come to pass. Not everyone agrees with them but it is undeniable that sometimes his prophecies can be seen as accurate. Can you show us any passage in the Qur'an that even remotely predicts something that happened that was not self-fulfilled by Muhammad himself and his followers?
When I say that the Qur'an is full of errors, contradictions and nonsense, I am showing them to you. All I am asking is that you show us one of the miracles of the Qur'an. You have not done that and you are unable to do it. It's because this perceived miracle that you are talking about is subjective. It is your wishful thinking that makes banal words, seem prophetic and miraculous.
You say that your experience tells you that an objective reading of the Qur'an shows amazing results. If your reading is objective, you should be able to communicate it. That is the difference between objective and subjective. If you can't express something verbally and logically, then it is not objective, but rather subjective.
You say that one must have strong yearning for the truth in order to see the miracles in the Qur'an. To find the truth, you must first doubt. As long as you are a believer you only yearn to validate your belief. You need to be detached to find the truth. It is your strong yearning to believe that makes you see miracles in the Qur'an. A Persian song says I am so much in love with you that whoever I see from afar, I think it's you. Muslims are like that. They are so much enamored with Muhammad and Islam that they see miracles in the most banal things. They see the name of Allah written in clouds, in a tomato, on goats, etc. The Christians on the other hand see the images of Jesus and Mary everywhere. These are all wishful thinking. The miracles of the Qur'an are of this kind. They are wishful thinking of the believers.
There is a difference between yearning to find the truth and yearning to believe. The first is objective. You empty your mind from all preconceived ideas and prepare yourself to find things that may be contrary to your belief. The other is trying desperately to validate what you already believe.
You say that only the Qur'an and the sunnah are reliable and what the historians of Islam have written may not be true. I have been quoting from both the Qur'an and the sunnah. Some Muslims are even embarrassed by hadith and dismiss it as hearsay. That is okay. The Qur'an is enough to show Islam is false.
You say the Qur'an responds to its critics with such clarity and conviction that the reader grows in confidence in the authenticity of its claim to divinity. Will you please show us where we can find this clear response? You have been making this claim since day one and I have been asking you to show that clear proof. Where is the proof Dr. Zaheer?
I compared Muhammad to Hitler and Joseph Kony who also claimed that they were doing God's work. You wonder weathered Hitler could justify his acts on the basis of a convincing book, and reaffirmed that "the Qur'an most clearly presents the reasons why some people were declared eligible to be killed."
What are those reasons? I asked you this question many times. All you could tell me was that Muhammad was a messenger of God and as such whatever he did was justified and it is not up to us to question him. You even said that if I have a problem with that, I must first come to terms with the fact that Muhammad was a prophet of God and once that is established there should be no question why he did what he did. Your rationale is that Allah knows best and it is not up to us humans to question his wisdom. So even though Muhammad and Hitler acted similarly, we should not compare the two because Hitler did not have divine license to kill whereas Muhammad did. This rationale defies logic. God's actions cannot be illogical, unjust and cruel. The very fact that Muhammad acted like Hitler and Kony puts him in their category. A true messenger of God should not act like a criminal sadist. However, I even accepted to agree with this illogical premise and asked you to show us the evidence that Muhammad was indeed a true messenger of God and not a false prophet. I have been asking this in every response I have written to you. You have not given evidence to this claim yet.
Admit it, the only proof you have that Muhammad was a prophet of God is his own words. This is the same proof all cult leaders and impostors can give you. That is not enough for rational and thinking people.
You claimed that the truth of Islam is objective. You said that there are undeniable and clear proofs that Islam is a true religion. Where is that proof? Why do you beat around the bushes and don't give it to us? When I say Muhammad was a pedophile, a rapist, an assassin, a highway robber, a torturer, a liar, a deceiver and a mass murderer, I back up every accusation with examples of his life. I challenge anyone to refute my proofs and I have promised to remove my charges, apologize publicly, and even pay to anyone who can prove me wrong. Your claim that the Qur'an is a miracle is nothing but wishful thinking. There is no miracle in that book of nonsense and asininity.
If you are so sure that the Qur'an is a miracle then why you are so afraid of FFI? When you put light and darkness next to each other, light always wins. If the Qur'an is light and FFI is darkness, then why did you block FFI in Pakistan and why you don't publish our debate in your site? Your argument is stronger and more convincing. Isn't it? You are winning. Aren't you? So why not let Muslims read it and become reconfirmed in their faiths? Often, my respected scholar friend, actions speak louder than words.
You say the Qur'an gives clear reasons why some people were eligible to be killed, but when asked to give those reasons you did not seem to have any. Doesn't this mean that you are willing to kill innocent people for no clear reason at all? If Islam is a lie, you are advocating killing innocent people for a lie. What can be more evil than this? If you were not a Muslim, would you even entertain the though of killing other humans only because their faith is different from yours? Certainly not! This murderous trait in you is not innate. It is all due to your indoctrination. Sadly, you are not alone. All Muslims who know Islam well think like you. That is why I said, there is no such thing as moderate Muslim. We have either ignorant Muslims, those who don't know Islam, or terrorist Muslims. Moderate Muslim is oxymoron. It's like "spherical cube." It makes as much sense moderate Nazi, gentle torturer, honest thief and truthful liar. You are either an ignorant Muslim or a terrorist Muslim but you can't be a moderate Muslim because such a creature does not exist. It is a myth like unicorn. Most ignorant Muslims leave Islam after their knowledge of Islam increases. Some of them become terrorists.
How can we live together in this world dear Dr. Zaheer, when you are saying in our face that those of us who do not share your views do not deserve to live? Do you see now why I only oppose Islam and do not care about any other religion? No other religion teaches this much hatred and violence as Islam does. All other religions are mixed bags of good and bad. Islam is the only religion that has nothing good in it. If one believes in Satan, one is forced to admit that Islam is Satan's way to destroy mankind.
Will you tell us, if God wanted to kill those who disbelieve in him, why he created them in the first place? Didn't know that they will become disbelievers? And if he has to kill them why he does not kill them himself? Why is he depending on Muslims to do his dirty works?
In my previous response I talked about Joseph Kony. This psychopath says that his followers should place obedience to him above everything else and love him more than they love their own parents. Eerily, these were the very instructions of Muhammad too. Now the question that I would like you to answer is what Allah wants to achieve by asking the Muslims to murder the unbelievers? If the point is to kill them because they don't deserve to live in this world, as you say, he can easily do that himself. Why he delegates this dirty job to his followers? What kind of believers he wants to rear? Have you ever thought of it? Do you have an answer for it? Next time, please concentrate on this question. Don't you think this is the reason why Muslims are so violent and are killing one another so much? Each group accuses others of being kafir and then goes about spilling their blood. This is a diabolic teaching not divine.

Yes it is really certain that at no time, no Christian denomination worshiped Mary, the mother of Jesus, as one figure of the trinity. The three persons in trinity are the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit. Mary has never been part of this trio. Muhammad has goofed when made that claim. If you don't believe me, it is up to you to bring one historic text showing there were a group of Christians who worshiped Mary. This alone should be enough for one who really yearns for truth, to see that Muhammad was a liar.

I thought you were questioning my claim that the Christians did never include
Mary in the trinity. Now you seem to be saying something completely opposite
to what you said in your previous sentence. Now you deny that Muhammad ever
included Mary in the Trinity. No, problem. Here is the Qur'anic verse that
shows Muhammad thought Christians worship Mary:

Qur'an.5:116
And behold! Allah will say: "O Jesus the son of Mary! Didst thou say unto men,
worship me and my mother as gods in derogation of Allah'?" He will say:
"Glory to Thee! never could I say what I had no right (to say). Had I said such a
thing, thou wouldst indeed have known it. Thou knowest what is in my heart,
Thou I know not what is in Thine. For Thou knowest in full all that is hidden.

Now, let us look at this verse closely. Allah is saying that Allah [sic] will ask,
"did you [Jesus] order people to worship you and your mom?" And the poor
Jesus starts denying and defending himself against this calumny. Doesn't Allah
know already what Jesus said and what he did not say? Why he asks this foolish
question from Jesus when he should be the first to refute this calumny and
defend him? This verse makes no sense at all? Let us say your son is accused of
something that you know for surety that it is not true, for example he is accused
of stealing something in England when you know your son has not been in
England. Will you ask your son, "did you do it?" That would be foolish. You
know he did not do it and you should be the first to come to his defense and
witness on his behalf.

Let me plagiarize the style of the Qur'an and compose a sentence like the verse 5:116.
"Tomorrow Ali Sina will ask Dr. Zaheer: 'Did you say that you are Japanese?' Dr. Zaheer will respond, 'I never said that.'"
If I know you never said that and I am already saying that when asked you will respond in negative, then why would I ask this stupid question from you?
Is this the book you call miracle? Can anyone write anything stupider than this? This verse is ridiculous from every angle you look at it.

Well, here is your chance to show that to us. You have made many claims about the Qur'an but have not given any proof to back those claims. If you show us one verse in the Bible that points to Muhammad in a clear and unambiguous way, in a way that I can't use the same verse to prove my divinity, I will forego all the blunders and absurdities in the Qur'an and become a believer. This is the second question that I would like you to answer in the next round.

You are referring to the chapters 16 to 22 of Genesis. Let us see what these chapters say.
In chapter 16 we read that since Sarah, the wife of Abraham could not bear a child, she suggested that her husband sleep with Hagar, her Egyptian maidservant, so she could bear him a child. When Hagar became pregnant, she also became rude to her mistress Sarah. Sarah complained to Abraham who told her to do with Hagar as she pleases. Hagar then fled to the desert and bore her son Ismael near a spring, called Beer Lahai Roi that was between Kadesh and Bered, beside the road to Shur (nothing to do with Mecca). An angel of God found her and inquired what had happened to her. When Hagar told her story, the angel told her to go back to her mistress and be an obedient maidservant to her and said that she would have numerous descendants. The angel also told Hagar that her son will be a "wild donkey of a man. His hand will be against everyone and everyone's hand against him. And he will live in hostility toward all his brothers." (Gen 16:12)
Now, this is not flattering at all. Hagar, the alleged mother of the Arabs, is rude and ungrateful. She bites the hand that feeds her. She can't handle being treated with respect. She needs to be treated like a servant so she can be respectful. Ismael is also referred to as a wild jackass of a man who fights with everyone and is hostile to all his brothers. Considering how Arabs behave, one is amazed to see that sometimes the Bible, this book of fairytales and absurdities, can get is so right. I see nothing in these Biblical verses for you to brag about. Is this what you wanted to show me in the Bible?
In the chapter 17 of Genesis God appears to Abraham when he is already 99 years old and promises that he will give him a son, Isaac, and says: "I will establish my covenant as an everlasting covenant between me and you and your descendants after you for the generations to come." (Gen.17:7) He also says that through Isaac Abraham will have many descendants and that "The whole land of Canaan,.. I will give as an everlasting possession to you and your descendants after you".(Gen.17:8) Is he talking about Ismael? No! He is talking about Isaac and his descendants. So if you believe in the god of the Bible then you know why Arabs are losing in Palestine. It is because they are in breach of the everlasting covenant of God. They are fighting against the will of God. The Land of Canaan is promised to the children of Isaac in an everlasting covenant.
Muhammad said that the covenant of God is null and void because the Jews rejected him. Now we have evidence that Muhammad was a liar and the Jews were in their right mind to reject him. God does not break his covenant even if humans do. That would not be godly. The promise that God gave to Abraham was not conditional. Allah is whimsical. He lies, deceives and plots. According to the Qur'an he is khairul makereen (the best of deceivers). However, a true God cannot be like that. Makr (deceit) is not a divine quality. This Quranic verse is enough proof that Allah is not God.
Then Abraham asks that God also bless his other son, Ismael, and God agrees to increase his descendants too. Between you and me, I think that was very shortsighted of God. He knew that the descendants of this wild donkey of a man will have their hands against the hands of everyone else and will be hostile to all mankind. He should not have given in to Abraham in order to please him and he should not have made the descendants of Ismael populous. That was a big mistake. Now we are facing a world crisis because there are too many wild donkeys that kick hard and have even learned to make bombs. Imagine how dangerous it would be if donkeys had horns. Muslims with bombs are more dangerous than donkeys with horns.
When Isaac was born, Ismael, who was 14 years older, started to abuse him. [His descendants and their lackeys (non Arab Muslims) are doing the same to the descendants of Isaac, even though they are a hundred fold bigger. Nothing has changed.] Sarah said to Abraham "Get rid of that slave woman and her son, for that slave woman's son will never share in the inheritance with my son Isaac"(Gen 21:10). [Well, even though the Arbas have 500 times more land than the Jews, and their land has oil, the descendants of Ismael have no eyes to see the children of Isaac and want to take their tiny land away from them and drown them in the sea. Like father, like son.] So Abraham and Sarah kicked Hagar and Ismael out of their house again.
Abraham was saddened because after all Ismael was his son. God told him, "Do not be so distressed about the boy and your maidservant. Listen to whatever Sarah tells you, because it is through Isaac that your offspring will be reckoned." (Gen.21:12) Did you hear that? Please read it again. However, God added: "I will make the son of the maidservant into a nation also, because he is your offspring."
The Qur'an says that it was Ismael that Abraham wanted to sacrifice. This is wrong. According to the Bible, God said to Abraham, "Take your son, your only son, Isaac, whom you love, and go to the region of Moriah. Sacrifice him there as a burnt offering." (Gen. 22:2)
Now, we know that Isaac was not the only son of Abraham. However, God did not even count the other jackass of a man as the son of Abraham. He was simply not important to be counted. Abraham loved only Isaac. Yes, God promised that Ismael will have a lot of descendants. He promised the same to rabbits and pigs too. Having a lot of children is not the sign of importance. The poorest and the most ignorant nations of the world are more procreative. Where in the Bible it says that one of the descendants of this wild donkey of a man will become a prophet and will lead mankind to God?
You have claimed a lot of things, but you are yet to give evidence to those claims. You even went as far as saying that Islam is not "faith" but "fact". And yet, despite repeated requests, you have not shown any fact. Now you say that there is mention of Muhammad in the Bible. Will you show that to us? Which chapter? Which verse?

Dear Dr. Zaheer. I think we already knew from day one that you are the one who are writing these articles and not Mr. Ghamidi. You stated several times that you consult with him before writing your responses. Has anything changed? Have you stopped consulting him and if yes, why? Does Dr. Ghamidi think it is waste of his time to help you defend Islam in front of thousands of people? In the course of a few years this debate will be read by millions. Does he still think it is not worth his time? There are thousands of people, particularly Muslim youths who read FFI. Doesn't he think that it is his duty to show them that I am mistaken so their faiths become stronger? There are also many non-Muslims who read this site and they too are eager to see the undeniable truth of Islam. You don't want them being misled by me. Do you?
There are Muslims who write to various scholars inviting them to debate with me. These scholars either do not respond or respond by telling the Muslim to stay away from me. I wonder why? I hope it is not because they think this would cause embarrassment to Islam. Why not take advantage of this opportunity and show the truth of Islam to the world?
You claimed the Qur'an has undeniable evidence and irrefutable proof and that once that is established then everything else becomes irrelevant. Although I do not agree with this logic and believe that even a single error in the book claimed to be verbatim word of God disqualify it as such, I stopped asking you questions about the Qur'an so you could show us that proof and agreed to abide even by this unreasonable premise. However you did not show us any proof. So I go back asking questions. Here are the two questions I would like you to focus on the next time.
Question #5
If God must kill the unbelievers, why he does not do it himself? Why he asks Muslims to soil their hands with blood and become murderers? What kind of people Allah wants to collect around himself as his followers? Will the paradise be full of assassins, murderers and terrorists? Why Allah has placed so much emphasis on fighting and killing and rewards those who kill for him more than those who don't?

Question # 6
Will you please show us one example where Muhammad is referred to in the Bible? Muhammad said that the Bible mentions his name (Ahmad). I never saw him mentioned in the Bible.
If you like shorter responses, you may respond to these two questions in two parts.
I remain cordially yours
Ali Sina

[Allegracrown]

Part XVI



Dear Dr. Zaheer:
I am accusing your prophet of the most horrendous crimes and instead of trying to defend him you seem to be more interested in talking about the rules of thef debate. We are in round seventeen of this debate. Don't you think it is time to answer to some of the charges brought against Muhammad or try to give proofs that he was not a liar?

Things are either subjective or objective. I know of no other category. Something is objective when it is not influenced by personal feelings, interpretations, or prejudice. Objective arguments are based on facts and facts are demonstrable. A subjective argument on the other hand, exists in the mind and belongs to the thinking subject rather than to the object of thought.
When you say there is miracles in the Qur'an, this statement is either objective or it is subjective. If it is objective you must be able to clearly explain it with external facts. For example the claim that the Earth is revolving around the Sun is an objective claim because it is demonstrable. There is no subjectivity here and you can't deny it unless you deny the facts. On the other hand the claim that moon is beautiful is subjective. I am sure if you get closer to this planet you won't find it very attractive. If the miracles in the Qur'an were as clear as the moon in the sky all you had to do is to point to them in the Qur'an and everyone would see them. You have not done so despite my repeated requests. Not only you can't point to these miracles, you even accuse those who do not see what you claim to see as not being objective or not having pure hearts. So in lieu of reason, you resort to ad hominem and accuse us of being blind. Therefore it is fair to say that this proverbial moon that you see in the sky is a hallucination. It is only in the heads of those who choose to believe. If it was real and objective you could show it to us.
You say "The Qur'an tells us that faith comes to those who want to believe;" The translation of this is, only those who want to be fooled will be fooled. This is the same argument that the believers of all faiths and cults make. They say you must have pure heart and want to believe in order to see the truth of our faith. We discussed this point before. There are thousands of beliefs out there. They are all contradicting each other. Not all of them can be true. We must choose, at most, one of them and discard the rest. Which one? Here is where we have to be objective. If all you have to do is to want to believe then how can you be sure that you are not falling into the trap of a charlatan like Jim Jones, Shoko Asahara, David Koresh, Sun Miun Moon, Sai Baba, John De Ruiter, Joseph Kony, Charles Manson and countless other psychopath liars? Please tell us what sets apart Muhammad from these con men? How do we know that Muhammad did not belong to this lot? What did he do and say that sets him apart?
When you want desperately to believe in something you fall into traps. Islam appeals to people who are impressionable and gullible. Consider your own case. You converted to Islam after your father passed away, at a time when you were extremely vulnerable and desperate to believe in something. It just happened that you were born in a Muslim family and Islam was the only religion you knew. Had you been born into a family with a different faith, you would have found your solace in that faith. At first you said that your coming to Islam has been very objective. Now you say that Islam is neither objective nor it is subjective. Of course, this is not possible. One is either pregnant or one is not. You are engaging in the most elemental logical fallacy to cling to your faith and somehow justify your belief. You are far smarter than that and I hope that you realize that these arguments make no sense.
Wanting and being eager to believe will for sure lead you to wrong paths. If you really want to find the truth you must be detached. We should use the scientific method to find the truth. Scientists do not go to the lab with preconceived ideas desperately trying to validate what they already thinks is true and discarding any evidence contrary to their preconceptions. They put aside all their biases and try to find the truth accepting the fact that truth may be very different from what they had originally postulated. This is how one finds the truth, not by eagerly wanting to believe. Now it is clear why you are unable to see what the rest of the world can see. Your methodology is wrong. Instead of desperately wanting to believe you must be detached and become willing to doubt and to question.
Every great achievement in the world has been attained by men and women who were capable of doubting. This world is built by doubters and not by believers. Doubters are leaders of thoughts. Believers are followers. We say those who are unable to doubt and believe unquestioningly, have sheep mentality. There is no pride in believing. Those who are not capable of doubting believe. God gave us brain to doubt, to question, to wonder and to discover new frontiers and not to believe. Galileo was a doubter. Copernicus was a doubter, Darwin was a doubter. Newton, Einstein and all those who left their mark in the history of science and human understanding were doubters. Zakaria Razi, Ibn Sina, Farabi and Khayyam were all doubters. On the other hand Khomeini was a believer. Not all the believers are stupid but all the stupid people are believers.


So you think because Muhammad said if you don't believe in me you will be subdued and then raided his victims and subdued them he was a prophet? This is a blatant logical fallacy. I already answered this fallacious argument in my previous response.
Muhammad signed an agreement with the Meccans that for ten years there should be no hostility among them. Then he broke his treaty after two years, as soon as he became strong, and raided that city. The Meccans were taken by surprise. They were not ready for this raid and not prepared to defend themselves. They had no choice but to negotiate their surrender. What part of this is miracle? This is a tale of treason and deceit.
If Muhammad had threatened his enemies with divine chastisement and then a calamity had fallen on them without his intervention and if this had happened every time that he warned people, so no one could discard it as fluke, then you had a point. But I see no miracle in threatening people and then raiding them and killing them when unarmed. The miracle is in the fact that a billion Muslims see this dastardly act of treachery as a miracle. If what Muhammad did was a miracle, then Genghis Khan also performed many miracles. What was the difference between Muhammad, Genghis Khan, Alexander the Macedonian and Napoleon? The only difference I can see is that Muhammad also lied about being a prophet and those who are gullible enough to believe in him perpetuate this lie and pass it on to the next generations.
It is depressing that intelligent men such as your good selves make these absurd statements. Truth cannot be established by demonstrating who is more ruthless and brute. This is how a narcissist thinks. Muhammad was a narcissist and as such he believed that might is right. By entering in his bubble universe, Muslims have become extensions of his narcissistic mind and they collectively believe in the same absurdities that their prophet believed. It is illogical to say that because someone was more cunning, more ruthless and vanquished his opponents, he must be right. This is the law of jungle. Argumentum ad baculum is not for rational humans. What you think is the greatest miracle of all, is nothing but a great fallacy. Truth cannot be determined by the use of force and by subduing your opponent with violence.

Whether I like God killing people in natural calamities or not is another story. My question was why Allah asked his believers to murder their kind when even most savage animals rarely do such a thing. If Allah is so desperate to be worshiped and so offended when not, that the only way for him to feel relief is by killing those who reject him, why he does not kill the rejecters himself? You did not answer this question. You simply said because he can do whatever he likes. This is not an answer. My question was why Allah wants humans to become murderers? If murdering was such a good thing, why most of good people abhor it? Why we humans do not naturally enjoy the sight of carnage? This tells me that our creator has not made us natural killers. How can Allah be the same creator? How can God make us abhor killing and then order us to kill our kind? What kind of spiritual education is this that involves bloodshed and murder?
If Allah had directly destroyed those who rejected Muhammad then we would know that Muhammad had indeed an invisible friend behind him who was ruthless and bloodthirsty. Of course this would not have meant that Allah is God, but at least we knew that someone called Allah exists outside Muhammad's imagination. However, when we see Allah completely helpless and Muhammad is doing all the killing himself, we are forced to come to the conclusion that Allah is nothing but Muhammad's sockpuppet and a figment of his own imagination.
In many hadiths we read that Muhammad used to curse his enemies for thirty days and yet no harm came to them. They only were vanquished when he cowardly raided their homes and treacherously took them by surprise. These actions are not godly. How can Muslims not see that? How do you distinguish an evil man and a holy man if not by their actions? You believe that Jesus was a prophet of God. What do you think he meant when he warned people of the false prophets? He said you will recognize them by their fruits. Can't you see that the actions of Muhammad were all evil? Can you show me a man as evil as him? You overlook all this man's evil deeds because in your opinion he was a messenger of God. I can't begin to fathom the absurdity of this line of reasoning. My reasoning tells me that no real God would send a murderer to guide mankind. You think that it is possible for God to send a man who acts like a gangster to guide mankind to the true path. Do you have any proof that he was a prophet? You have produced none so far. You gave big promises that there are miracles in the Quran, but all your claims are debunked, one after another.

I don't think my question was unintelligent. However since the point is clear, there is no reason for me to dwell on it further. I only add one thing and that is in a trial the judge questions all the parties because he does NOT know the facts and wants to find out the truth. If a judge has already made his mind, before even the trial begins, he is presiding over a kangaroo court. Is this how divine justice in Allah's court works? What is the point of setting up such a mock trial when the outcome is already decided? Allah knows the facts and so does the defendant. All he has to do is tell the sinner, I am going to send you to hell for such and such violations. Trial means finding the facts in order to determine the guilt or innocence. If the facts are already known to the judge it is foolish to set up a kangaroo court and conduct a mock trial.
No matter how you look at Islam it turns out to be a foolish religion.

There is only one version of the Qur'an. I am trying to show the world that this book is satanic, while you are trying to make them believe it is a miracle.

Deuteronomy 18:15 reads: "The LORD your God will raise up for you a prophet like me from among your own brothers. You must listen to him."
You say this is about Muhammad? Don't you see that the verse clearly says that this prophet will be raised, "from among your own brothers?" Was Muhammad a Jew? How can anyone in his right mind think this verse is about Muhammad who was not a Jew?
It is important to get into details. It is then that I can show with clarity that every argument Muslims use to prove Islam is a true religion is false.
Now, I am going to ask another question.

Question # 7
If Allah knows who will be a believer and who will be a non-believer and if he has preordained everything, why he created the non-believers, only to burn them for eternity after they die?