What Do You Think?

[uvvsklfp]

I have seen several posts on this board that equate attacks (for instance suicide bombing) by misguide Muslims on various targets with the true religion of Islam. This is simply not the case.

The practice of suicide bombing is seen in many parts of the world and attempts have been made to legitimize such conduct. A careful study of the sources of Islam shows that there is no basis for such action and that these tactics are absolutely out of the question for true followers of Islam. Allah Almighty says in the Holy Quran

And kill not your own selves. Surely Allah is Merciful to you. (Ch. 4.- v. 30)

...and cast not yourselves into ruin with your own hands... (Ch. 2.- v.196)

Islam strictly forbids the killing of innocent, non-aggressive people: no hostility is allowed except against the aggressors. (Ch. 2.- v.194)

These three verses alone should be sufficient to show that it is not Islamic for Muslims to be making suicide attacks to blow up innocent civilians.

You will obviously ask . . . why do they do it?

Unfortunately, the Muslims are encouraged to do these unIslamic acts through the promise that if they do it; then they will be regarded by Allah as being martyrs and will go straight to Heaven.

True Islam is simply not a violent religion.

[jerrys1960]

Before I get to your main points let us first set some basic ground rules. In the future please always be sure to post references to the quotes. So that we can all be using the same text.

In this case there are several differences in the text you quoted as being in the quran and what I found. Not only differences in text but also verse numbers. However, the verse number differences I will not call issue to as that could be a simple translation combining of verses or omission of a verse that a translation did not consider relevant (for instance the verses in the quran where the text is not translatable or understandable in any human/mortal language). However major text omissions I do think is an issue, especially when that omission changes the meaning of what you claim the verse says.

For instance with 4:30

You claim the verse only says
And kill not your own selves. Surely Allah is Merciful to you. (Ch. 4.- v. 30)

the version I am using The Authorized English Translation of the Quran found at: www.submission.org/suras/sura4.html says:
[ 4:29 ] O you who believe, do not consume each others' properties illicitly - only mutually acceptable transactions are permitted. You shall not kill yourselves. GOD is Merciful towards you.
[ 4:30 ] Anyone who commits these transgressions, maliciously and deliberately, we will condemn him to Hell. This is easy for GOD to do.


Even the version at the http://skepticsannotatedbible.com/quran/4/index.htm

[ 4:29 ] O ye who believe! Squander not your wealth among yourselves in vanity, except it be a trade by mutual consent, and kill not one another. Lo! Allah is ever Merciful unto you.

[ 4:30 ] Whoso doeth that through aggression and injustice, we shall cast him into Fire, and that is ever easy for Allah.

= = = =

Your second reference Quran: 2:196

You claim the verse says:

...and cast not yourselves into ruin with your own hands... (Ch. 2.- v.196)

In the The Authorized English Translation of the Quran

found at: http://www.submission.org/suras/sura2.html

reads

[2:195] You shall spend in the cause of GOD; do not throw yourselves with your own hands into destruction. You shall be charitable; GOD loves the charitable.

[2:196] You shall observe the complete rites of Hajj and `Umrah for GOD. If you are prevented, you shall send an offering, and do not resume cutting your hair until your offering has reached its destination. If you are ill, or suffering a head injury (and you must cut your hair), you shall expiate by fasting, or giving to charity, or some other form of worship. During the normal Hajj, if you break the state of Ihraam (sanctity) between `Umrah and Hajj, you shall expiate by offering an animal sacrifice. If you cannot afford it, you shall fast three days during Hajj and seven when you return home - this completes ten - provided you do not live at the Sacred Masjid. You shall observe GOD, and know that GOD is strict in enforcing retribution.

While the skeptics annotated quran at http://skepticsannotatedbible.com/quran/2/index.htm reads:

[ 2:195 ] Spend your wealth for the cause of Allah, and be not cast by your own hands to ruin; and do good. Lo! Allah loveth the beneficent.

[ 2:196 ] Perform the pilgrimage and the visit (to Makka) for Allah. And if ye are prevented, then send such gifts as can be obtained with ease, and shave not your heads until the gifts have reached their destination. And whoever among you is sick or hath an ailment of the head must pay a ransom of fasting or almsgiving or offering. And if ye are in safety, then whosoever contenteth himself with the visit for the pilgrimage (shall give) such gifts as can be had with ease. And whosoever cannot find (such gifts), then a fast of three days while on the pilgrimage, and of seven when ye have returned; that is, ten in all. That is for him whoso folk are not present at the Inviolable Place of Worship. Observe your duty to Allah, and know that Allah is severe in punishment.


= = = =

Your third reference Quran 2:194 you quote it as saying:

Islam strictly forbids the killing of innocent, non-aggressive people: no hostility is allowed except against the aggressors. (Ch. 2.- v.194)

In the The Authorized English Translation of the Quran

found at: http://www.submission.org/suras/sura2.html
reads

[ 2:193 ] You may also fight them to eliminate oppression, and to worship GOD freely. If they refrain, you shall not aggress; aggression is permitted only against the aggressors.

[ 2:194 ] During the Sacred Months, aggression may be met by an equivalent response. If they attack you, you may retaliate by inflicting an equitable retribution. You shall observe GOD and know that GOD is with the righteous.


the skeptics annotated quran found at http://skepticsannotatedbible.com/quran/2/index.htm reads:


2:193 And fight them until persecution is no more, and religion is for Allah. But if they desist, then let there be no hostility except against wrong-doers.

2:194 The forbidden month for the forbidden month, and forbidden things in retaliation. And one who attacketh you, attack him in like manner as he attacked you. Observe your duty to Allah, and know that Allah is with those who ward off (evil).

= = = =

After reading the actual Islamic text I can understand why it takes “A careful study of the sources of Islam” to find the meanings you are trying to pull out of the Islamic sources.

The first two examples you listed in the context written in the quran are talking about how Muslims should not financially ruin themselves or each other. I fail to see how that has anything to do with saying attacks bombing or otherwise are not allowed. Perhaps you can enlighten me using Islamic text used in the context it was written. Not partial verses that are completely out of context.

Your last verse only says to stop fighting those that have become submissive to Islam. Anyone not submissive to Islam the verse would still allow aggression against: anyone that speaks out against Islam, its rules, its founder, speaks against any part of the Islamic way of life. The verse would also still allow aggression against anyone that tried to share their faith with a Muslim or worse tried to convert a Muslim to a different faith. It would also still allow aggression against anyone that thinks they should be able to worship the way they choose or those that do not believe in any god.

So I am still confused about the verse saying not to kill others (even at the lose of ones own life). No the text does not say to bomb groups or locations but your last example, when the entire verse is displayed, seems to clearly say to attack anyone not submissive to Islam.

=

Now let is talk about one of your other terms:
Innocent civilians

An innocent civilian or innocent person in Islam means another Muslim. ANYONE who rejects Muhammad is not considered to be innocent under Islamic law. Consider that a great deal of the Quran is devoted to describing the horrible punishment that awaits those who refuse to become Muslim. Does it make sense that god would punish innocent people? Simply put the only innocent victims, according to Islam, would be when other Muslims that were not taking part in an attack are killed.

=

As for how these alleged misguided Muslims get the idea that dieing while fighting against an enemy of Islam will get them into paradise. Let us see what some Islamic leaders and Islamic text have to say about the subject.

The following is copied from:
http://www.islam-qa.com/en/ref/71284/martyr%20Paradise

The page is rather long so I am only going to copy pertinent sections regarding martyrs that die fighting against the kuffaar (all of us non-muslims). I encourage everyone to read the full text.

[I will also be put some comments in brackets] as well as highlighting and underscoring some areas of interest.



Al-Nawawi (may Allaah have mercy on him) said:
It should be noted that martyrs are of three types: [I am only going to list the first]

1 – The one who is killed in a war against the kuffaar by any means of fighting. He comes under the heading of martyrs who are rewarded in the Hereafter and he comes under the rulings on martyrs in this world, i.e. he should not be washed and the funeral prayer should not be offered for him.
…
Sharh al-Nawawi ‘ala Muslim (2/164).


[ I think the by any means of fighting would include the self sacrifice while killing kuffaars in an explosive attack. What us kuffaars call suicide bombers. ]


In the saheeh Sunnah there are reports from the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) which indicate this difference in status among the martyrs.

For example:

(a)

It was narrated from Nu’aym ibn Hammaar that a man asked the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him): Which of the martyrs is best? He said: “Those who, when they took up their position in the ranks, did not turn their faces away until they were killed. They will be in the dwellings on high in Paradise, and their Lord smiles upon them, and when your Lord smiles upon a slave in this world, he will not be brought to account.”
Narrated by Ahmad (21970); classed as saheeh by Shaykh al-Albaani in al-Silsilah al-Saheehah (2558).

(b)

It was narrated that ‘Utbah ibn ‘Abdin al-Sulami said: The Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said: “The slain are of three types: (the first is) a believing man who fought with his life and his wealth for the sake of Allaah, and when he met the enemy he fought them until he was killed. That is the proud martyr who resides in the tent of Allaah beneath His Throne; the Prophets are no better than him except by virtue of their being Prophets. (The second is) a believing man who committed some sins, but he fought with his life and his wealth for the sake of Allaah, and when he met the enemy he fought until he was killed. His sins are erased, for the sword erases sins, and he will be admitted through whichever of the gates of Paradise he wishes, for it has eight gates, and Hell has seven gates, and some of them are better than others. …
Narrated by Ahmad (17204). Its isnaad was classed as jayyid by al-Mundhiri in al-Targheeb wa’l-Tarheeb (2/208), and as hasan by al-Albaan in Saheeh al-Targheeb (1370).

[fighting until killed. the sword erases sins. This gets the person into paradise. ]


(c)

It was narrated from ‘Abd-Allaah ibn Hubshi al-Khath’ami that the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) was asked: What type of jihad is best? He said: The one who strives against the mushrikeen with his wealth and his life.” It was said: What kind of death is noblest? He said: “The one whose blood is shed and his horse is killed.”
Narrated by Abu Dawood (1449) and al-Nasaa'i (2526); classed as saheeh by al-Albaani in Saheeh al-Targheeb (1318).


[I think that sort of shoots down the idea that the form of jihad preferred in Islam is a peaceful inner struggle.]

[ let us move on to what it says about the rewards of the martyrs]

With regard to the life of the martyrs with their Lord, it is the life of al-Barzakh, where their Lord honours them with the delights of Paradise, where their position varies according to their deeds and intentions in this world.

Allaah says (interpretation of the meaning):

“Think not of those as dead who are killed in the way of Allaah. Nay, they are alive, with their Lord, and they have provision.

170. They rejoice in what Allaah has bestowed upon them of His Bounty and rejoice for the sake of those who have not yet joined them, but are left behind (not yet martyred) that on them no fear shall come, nor shall they grieve.

171. They rejoice in a grace and a bounty from Allaah, and that Allaah will not waste the reward of the believers”

[Aal ‘Imraan 3:169-171]

“And say not of those who are killed in the way of Allaah, ‘They are dead.’ Nay, they are living, but you perceive (it) not”
[al-Baqarah 2:154]

Shaykh Ibn ‘Uthaymeen said:

What is meant is that they are alive with their Lord, as it says in the verse from Aal ‘Imraan, but it is the life of al-barzakh and we do not know how it is. They have no need for food, drink or air, hence Allaah says “but you perceive (it) not” i.e., you do not perceive that they are living, because it is the life of al-barzakh in the unseen. If Allaah had not told us about it we would have no knowledge of it.

Another thing we learn from the verse is that the martyrs are alive, but it is the life of al-barzakh which is nothing like life in this world, rather it is better and greater, but we do not know how it is. End quote.
Tafseer Soorat al-Baqarah (2/176, 177).

= = = =

this section I am pulling from:
http://www.islam-qa.com/en/ref/25843
which was talking about the rewards that are known to be given while the exact reward is not know there is strong incentive for a Muslim to attempt to become a beloved martyr as the reward is not only the virgins everyone talks about but also get intercede for seventy of his relatives (in other words the martyr can help keep several relatives from going to hell also.)

-

What is proven in the saheeh Sunnah is that the martyr (shaheed) will have seventy-two hoor ‘iyn. The least of the people of Paradise will have two wives, and some will have more than that.

It was narrated that al-Miqdaam ibn Ma’di Yakrib said: The Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said: “The martyr has six blessings with Allaah: he will be forgiven from the first drop of blood shed; he will be shown his place in Paradise; he will be protected from the torment of the grave; he will be safe from the greater terror; a crown of dignity will be placed on his head, one ruby of which is better than this world and everything in it; he will be married to seventy-two wives from al-hoor al-‘iyn; and he will intercede for seventy of his relatives.”

Narrated by al-Tirmidhi, 1663; Ibn Maajah, 2799; classed as saheeh by al-Albaani in Saheeh al-Tirmidhi.

-

= = =

- - - - - - -

Now granted I am not the sharpest tool in the shed but the Islamic text seems fairly clear on the subject.

There is one other important Islamic ruling found at the bottom of the page I referenced http://www.islam-qa.com/en/ref/71284/martyr%20Paradise

(the ruling links to other pages to show the Islamic text to back up the statements I am not going to copy them here as the there is a lot of detail. And this post is long enough already.)

The other important ruling that explains why there are so many individual attacks as quoted from the page is:

-

With regard to asking the ruler for permission for jihad, this has been discussed in the answer to question no. 69746 { http://www.islam-qa.com/index.php?ref=69746&ln=eng }. If the kuffaar attack the Muslims, then jihad becomes an individual obligation (fard ‘ayn) in which case the permission of the ruler is no longer a condition.

As for jihad with the aim of conquest and spreading Islam, the permission of the ruler is essential.

-

Note: an attack on Muslims can be drawing cartoons, passing out non-muslim religious material, naming a teddy bear Mohammad, asking questions muslims do not like, having symbols on ice cream cups or on floor tiles, that to a person with serious need of corrective eye wear, might look like an Islamic religious symbol, etc.

Obviously we see the teachings of Islam very differently. So, as always, if I or anyone on this board are somehow not interrupting or stating the Islamic text and teachings correctly please, help us to correct our mistakes.

But please do not try to do it with twisted half truths – aka - Al-taqiyya .

[uvvsklfp]

I do not know why you have so much trouble seeing the peaceful side of Islam.

When such violent acts are committed, innocent people are killed. The Holy Quran teaches us in Chapter 5, Verse 33

"Whosoever killed a person - unless it be for killing a person or for creating disorder in the land - it shall be as if he had killed all mankind"

Explaining this verse, Hazrat Mirza Ghulam Ahmad, the Founder of the Ahmadiyya Muslim Community said:

"A person who kills a person unfairly or who kills someone who had neither rebelled nor became a source of violating peace amongst the people nor created disorder in the land, it is as if he has killed the whole of mankind. In other words to kill a person without any cause is, according to God Almighty, like the murder of the entire humanrace. It is obvious from this verse, how big a sin it is to take the life of another person without reason." (Lecture Chashma-e-Ma'rifat p23-24)

Therefore it should be clear that whoever commits suicide or any form of terrorism which takes innocent lives is totally against the teachings of Islam.

[jerrys1960]

I really wish that you would include reference links to show what translation of the quran you are using that actually has verses that makes these statements in the exact form you are quoting them. Cause I have not been able to find it.


Let us start with your last statement:


“Therefore it should be clear that whoever commits suicide or any form of terrorism which takes innocent lives is totally against the teachings of Islam. “

We have already discussed that in Islam innocent lives refers to Muslims only. So yes a muslim killing another muslim is against Islamic teachings.

With suicide part if the person is committing suicide by taking poison, sleeping pills, pointing a gun to their own head, jumping off a building or any other form that will only kill the individual then yes that form of suicide is also against Islamic teachings (with some exceptions such as being if suicide is the only way of protecting some vital information from falling into the hands of an enemy or if one can not stop committing a major sin for example being a homosexual or unable/willing to stop drinking alcohol, or unable to stop questing the teachings and practices of Islam and Mohammad then some groups say that it is better for the sinner to commit suicide than to continue to commit the sins. The logic being to prevent the punishment by allah being worse than it already is were the person to continue to commit various sins. )


As for your version of the verse 5:33 or 5:32 as it seems to be in most other translations.

There is already a fairly lengthy discussion on that topic on this board that can be found at:
http://bbs.troach.net/viewtopic.php?t=1335
so I am not going to go into a lot of detail other than to quote the full text of the quran from a couple of sources.

In the The Authorized English Translation of the Quran
http://www.submission.org/suras/sura5.html
it says:
[5:32] Because of this, we decreed for the Children of Israel that anyone who murders any person who had not committed murder or horrendous crimes, it shall be as if he murdered all the people. And anyone who spares a life, it shall be as if he spared the lives of all the people. Our messengers went to them with clear proofs and revelations, but most of them, after all this, are still transgressing.
[5:33] The just retribution for those who fight GOD and His messenger, and commit horrendous crimes, is to be killed, or crucified, or to have their hands and feet cut off on alternate sides, or to be banished from the land. This is to humiliate them in this life, then they suffer a far worse retribution in the Hereafter.
[5:34] Exempted are those who repent before you overcome them. You should know that GOD is Forgiver, Most Merciful.
[5:35] O you who believe, you shall reverence GOD and seek the ways and means to Him, and strive in His cause, that you may succeed.


And the skeptics annotated quran http://skepticsannotatedbible.com/quran/5/index.htm
Reads:


5:32 - For that cause We decreed for the Children of Israel that whosoever killeth a human being for other than manslaughter or corruption in the earth, it shall be as if he had killed all mankind, and whoso saveth the life of one, it shall be as if he had saved the life of all mankind. Our messengers came unto them of old with clear proofs (of Allah's Sovereignty), but afterwards lo! many of them became prodigals in the earth.
5:33 - The only reward of those who make war upon Allah and His messenger and strive after corruption in the land will be that they will be killed or crucified, or have their hands and feet on alternate sides cut off, or will be expelled out of the land. Such will be their degradation in the world, and in the Hereafter theirs will be an awful doom;
5:34 - Save those who repent before ye overpower them. For know that Allah is Forgiving, Merciful.
5:35 - O ye who believe! Be mindful of your duty to Allah, and seek the way of approach unto Him, and strive in His way in order that ye may succeed.


The first part of the verse which you omitted - “We decreed for the Children of Israel” – makes it fairly clear text was/is intended for Jews (some include Christians.)


However you like to refer to the true Islam. So let us look at what those who lived with and knew Muhammad personally had to say about the verse, as I would suspect that their words would be truest representation regarding how we should interpret these verses.

Let us consider the words of Sayid ibn Jubayr (who lived at the time of Muhammad, and was a companion of Aisha), who said: ( copied from: http://www.tafsir.com/default.asp?sid=5&tid=13723 )
"He who allows himself to shed the blood of a Muslim, is like he who allows shedding the blood of all people. He who forbids shedding the blood of one Muslim, is like he who forbids shedding the blood of all people."

I do not know about anyone else but it seems about as clear as it can be that he considered the verse to only refer to the shedding of Muslim blood not the blood a Jew, a Christian, a Hindu, or a member of any other religion or anyone other than a Muslim.

To me it sounds a lot more like a street gang threat than a statement of peace. If anyone hurts one member of the gang all the members will take offense and respond.

Again as before please feel free to correct any mistakes I have made or make show the correct text if I have quoted anything incorrectly or out of proper context.

And I am going to ask AGAIN that you do not use twisted half truths ( Al-taqiyya ). To help us kaafirs understand "true Islam" at least use the entire verse when quoting the quran and please use an online reference so we can see your source.